Tell me what you think of these songs:

“Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to people of good will. We praise thee, we bless thee.” From Gloria Canon

“We are marching in the light of God” From An African Celebration

“Let us sing altogether to the Son of God. He is born as our saviour and redeemer. Come see the Christ child in the manger. The sweet little babe, Christ the King.” From Psallite

“Holy, Holy, Holy Lord of hosts. Holy, Holy, Holy God of power and might. Heaven and earth are filled with all your glorious works. Blest are they who worship in your Holy Name. Holy, Holy, Holy Lord of hosts. Holy, Holy, Holy God of power and might. Holy, Holy, Holy evermore the same.” From Sanctus

So what do you think of when you read these lyrics? Would you say these are religious songs? Would you come to the conclusion that perhaps these songs would be sung in a church? I come here to you today as a pissed off parent to find out these very same songs were performed by my daughters PUBLIC school choir. I was never informed and there was never a permission slip given to me asking if I thought this material was okay. I never received anything from her school. I did not find out about this until I was sitting in the stands and the program was passed out.

I was immediately outraged by this! I could not contain my emotions. I expressed my frustrations to my wife which started a separation of church and state debate in the stands of the auditorium. I am sure the parents sitting around us were either offended or amused by our banter. In my opinion this shit does not belong in our public schools. This is a clear violation of separation between church and state. You can clearly see these songs are religious based. The lyrics do not try and hide there purpose. It is just BAM in your face. I wanted to get up; grab my daughter and pull her from this performance. I will be contacting her school today. But wait it doesn’t stop there!

I was chatting with my daughter one day afterschool and she was telling me about how in social studies they are learning about Judaism. She recanted the story of Moses and the Pharaoh and the plagues that came to the Egyptian people. She went on to say Moses parted the Red Sea in order to get away. She then explained how Moses reached Mount Sinai and spoke to the burning bush, and about how on the top of the mountain God gave Moses the Ten Commandments written by Gods finger on two stone tablets. They were teaching her this as if it is a fact not a religious belief. I am all up in arms over this. I was irritated when she was telling me about this, and I had to immediately correct her and explain that these events are not real facts they are a man made fairy tale. She has been my daughter long enough to already know this to be true. I think these songs really pushed me off the ledge.

I really want to call her school and confront the principle on this subject. I will try to refrain because I am not sure how articulate I will come across. Now back to the debate with my wife. She was telling me I am an extremist in my views and that I am a hypocrite because I am making such a big deal about this. I am not sure if she really gets my point. Here is my stance. I do not think kids should be exposed to religion until they hit the age of reason. At this point I am all for them seeking out faith if they so choose. If my daughter is fifteen and chooses to go to church I will support her. If she chooses to become a Muslim I will support her. If she so chooses the Tao or to believe in nothing I will support her. Of course I would love to expose her to my belief system, but that goes against what I believe is right for my children. I do not think exposing children to religion is the right thing because their minds are not fully developed and frankly they are gullible and will believe just about anything.

My youngest son (6) has been recently talking a lot about God, Jesus and Heaven. I am not sure where these ideas are coming from but I am not okay with this. He has been told this by someone and now looks at it as a fact. I mean c’mon this kid still believes in Santa Claus so that about says it all. I made a mistake with my daughter. She used to go to this Christian daycare center and was exposed to religion. Every time we talked I had to reprogram her to set her straight. I told her these things are fairy tales and are false teachings. I succeeded in swaying her away from Christianity. She really enjoyed the movie “Religulous” which makes me think she is probably an atheist. This point is where I can see I am hypocritical. I didn’t want to do the same thing to my son so I just tell him that this is something people believe, and is not rooted in any logical form of thinking. I really doubt he understands what that means, because he still believes in Jesus just as much as he does Santa Claus. I would love nothing more than to start schooling him in Taoism, but like I said this goes against my belief system.

All I know is I am pissed about her social studies class. Something should have been sent home informing the parents what they will be teaching when it comes to religion. I am also pissed because her choir teacher should have sent something home asking the parents if they are okay with this material. I am a firm believer in the separation between church and state. God has no place in our government and sure as shit has no place in our public schools.

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Comments
  1. Nicole says:

    ……..says the anti-religion extremist!!

    You claim to want the kids to be EXPOSED to all sorts of belief systems, and then to make their own choice. But when she is EXPOSED to one you do not agree with you are upset. You expose the kids to your thinking, when you say to them “the theory of god is rooted in any logical form of thinking” that is YOUR belief being placed on him. Ask any faith based person if their belief is rooted in logic and they will tell you affirmatively YES.
    I do not see why it is an issue, I do not care that you explain your agnostic beliefs to the kids, nor do I care that the school teaches historical lessons that involve a god of any sort, nor do I care if the Jehovah’s witnesses come to the door and tell them their beliefs. That is how you give them all the info out there on many different beliefs, based on the freedom to believe what you want, as they grow and learn they can then choose which path they want to follow. To tell Brianna its not ok to believe or to sing about god, is simply doing what you say you hate the most!!

    The songs the kids hear on the radio and the music you allow Brianna to listen to is insulting, it objectifies women, it tells people to do dirty nasty things to get someone of the opposite sex, it makes people believe that all men suck and want sex, and all women should do is look hot, play dumb and give the men sex…and you seem to have no problem with them learning that.

    You had an extremist for the Christian religion in your ear growing up, which turned you to an extremist against Christianity…maybe if you just allow the kids to be exposed with out any backlash or upheaval they wont grow up becoming extreme Catholics just because you told them not to 

    • Tim Lundmark says:

      ok ok when I say I want the exposed to all sorts of religions I do not mean that I want them exposed when they are young and their brains are developing. I think at the age of 15 is a good time for them to be exposed not at 11 and sure as shit not at 6. I am not opposed to them being exposed just not yet. I would say aj is at the perfect age to explore reliogion if so chooses.

  2. Johanna says:

    Tim, all I have to say is before you, in your pride, discourage any religious beliefs in your children,you better think long and hard about what you are doing. You are to be held responsible for what you teach/or don’t teach your children. Jesus said, ” Let the children come to me. Do not stop them for the Kingdom of God belongs to those who are like little children”. Children have a natural curiosity and attraction to God. They should know they have a perfect father in Heaven who loves them with a love not flawed by human nature. They are loved unconditionally by someone who created them from nothing for a purpose. “Before you were formed in the body of your mother, I had knowledge of you and before your birth I made you holy” Shame to you if they are not allowed to know this. They should know that the pain and suffering of this earth are passing and that they were made to be united with God. Don’t leave they with the f***** up outlook you have on life and love.

  3. corey bratt says:

    I’m assuming you guys must not celebrate Christmas, since you do not believe in Christ, right?

    • Tim Lundmark says:

      Johanna, and Corey

      I believe x-mas like Easter is actually a pagen holiday. We celebrate x-mas because that is what we were raised to do. We do this not because of the birth of Christ we do this just because. I was a bit worried when I did this post that I would offend you two. I understand if I am wrong about God then there will be a special place for me in hell for not guiding my children to Christ. I was a bit hurt by the comment about my “F***ed up look on life and love. I would argue that your comment is both true and false. I do not believe my disfunctions in my mental illness has very little to do with my belief system. I was cursed with chemical imbvallances in my brain that F me up. I really dont know if my outlook on love is f’ed up. I think there is a large part of me that is filled with love and kindness……. wow I am actually at a loss for words on the last part of your comment.

  4. Johanna says:

    I am sorry about my harsh words.
    When I started reading your post, my first thought when I read the lyrics to the songs was, “what beauty lies in those words”. Then when I read your reaction to the songs, I was so disheartened, saddened. I wanted YOU to see the loveliness of those words of praise.
    It’s just that the hurt you suffered as a child and the resulting self-loathing are yours, and should remain yours alone. You didn’t learn to love yourself and to be loved but I know you don’t want your children to inherit this burden. Your experiences have everything to do with your belief system, a belief system you are still working on. Why shouldn’t your children grow up knowing that someone greater than themselves, greater than their father, loves them? You (as well as all parents) will let your children down and cause them pain. Wouldn’t you like to know that when you fail, Jesus, our saviour picks up where you leave off and loves your children for you? Maybe that would be the best gift that you could give your kids for Christmas….The knowledge of the infinite love of God.

    • corey bratt says:

      Johanna- that was beautiful 🙂 couldn’t have said it better, or more lovingly.

    • Tim Lundmark says:

      Johanna,

      That was beautiful, and I wish with all my heart I could believe in such things. There are times when I am reading the Bible it fills me with joy. Perhaps this is the holy spirit I have rejected who knows. I am doing a counter post for tomorrow so hopefully you will enjoy tomorrows post. I see your point I suppose I have never thought of it that way. I think the Bible says that children should not be responsible for their parents sins or something like that. Don’t be sorry about your harsh words they just took me by surprise.

  5. Johanna says:

    Tim, the primary indicatior of the presence of the Holy Spirit is joy. So, I’m sure the Holy Spirit made his presence known to you. (He is always with you, though you may not always sense it)

    And, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the bible quote about sins of the father goes like this: “The Lord, a God merciful and slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children’s children, to the third and fourth generations.”

    Basically, what this means is that the effect of sin and it’s consequences will be felt for generations. It’s what I was alluding to in the post above.

    I like to think of sin as a pebble thrown into a pond. The ripple effect of what we say and do have far reaching effects.

    • Tim Lundmark says:

      Is that verse in Exodus? I remember reading that a couple weeks ago. This is one of those minor things about this faith is the punishment reward system. If I am a Budhist monk living my life in a temple and doing good for the people around me according to the bible I will be punished. I think it is unfare if in my defience and ignorance I lead my children astray. This is not their fault so why should they be punished?

  6. Johanna says:

    It’s not that your children will be punished by God. They will live the effects of your sins. Children are great imitators of their parents. Whatever the effects of what happened to you as a child,have shaped who you have become. The way you act will affect the way your children act. We tend to send our flaws right down the line. Haven’t you ever seen one of your faults in your children and been just mortified? I have. That’s what the verse means.

    • Tim Lundmark says:

      I suppose I do notice some of my traits in my chiildren good and bad. I think what hurts me the most is when I act in certain ways like my step father acted. This is what destroys me inside. To see I have some of the same traits as the man who systimatically destroyed my childhood is a harsh truth to live with. This is one of the reasons why I cannot look at myself in the mirror

  7. Gee, I skip a day or two of blog reading and you post something like this!

    I’m with you 150%!! I would be fit to be tied and, even worse, I would have probably caused a scene right there in the auditorium!!!

    If people want to learn about religion, go to a church, synagogue or mosque. It doesn’t belong in public schools. Religion is a belief, not reality. It can’t be proven like, say, evolution or the theory of relativity.

    • Tim Lundmark says:

      Rambling,
      When my daughter was telling me the Moses story (as fact) I asked her if they teach about evolution and she just looked at me having no idea what I was talking about so I had to give her a brief lesson. I want to confront her school but my wife would freak out. I will say this if her school ever teaches her about creationism I will lose it.

    • Tim Lundmark says:

      BTW Rambling I was wondering where you were. I was waiting for some back-up

      • Sorry. I’ve been dealing with one of my frequent fibromyalgia flare-ups for the past week. Haven’t been feeling that good and have spent less time on the computer.

        As to Johanna’s suggestion of a debate, she is free to believe want she wants to believe. I simply do not think that religious beliefs should be presented as “facts” in public schools.

        Religion is nothing more than speculation. It is unprovable.

      • Tim Lundmark says:

        Rambling sorry to hear of your troubles.
        I think debating religion with people can most of the time not end well. I debate with my father all the time and it never ends happy. i usually need to stop him and say religion is off the table.

  8. Johanna says:

    Tim, wouldn’t it be funny to have me, corey, you and rambling hash it out for hours?

    • Tim Lundmark says:

      Johanna,

      I think that would be a paid pre-view event. I had you two on my back and I was just hoping Rambling would chime in soon. I think my wife would for sure be on your side! It would be an epic debate.

  9. Johanna says:

    PS. I think I’d take your wife on my side too! 🙂

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